Bianca's antics 3 - Is Nudism a Religion?

I forgot that I had promised three parts to my topic about Bianca Censori's (almost) nude antics. Of course, Bianca and Kanye were a pretext; if you haven't noticed it, I used them as a prop to present my system of thinking in terms of probability (which make me often reach conclusions which are opposed to what is presented as facts by the media and politicians); in the second installment I was describing my own experience with being nude in public. And in this third and last one I am trying to give my answer to the question: is provocative public nudity like Bianca's good and bad for nudism?

But I can't really try to answer this question before I think of other three: Is nudism a religion? Is it Messianic? Are we nudists its priests or missionaries?

Now I have the feeling that this is gonna be a long and boring post... So please stop reading here.

Af for the first question I'll take Harari's definition of what is a religion. Not because I like Harari (for a historian he knows preciously little about European history, I caught him several times parroting official propaganda which he must have read in governmental rags like NYT) but because he has a certain talent to crystallise complex ideas in simple words and short sentences. Maybe because he writes in English which is not his mother tongue?

So he defines a religion as a set of beliefs which (1) state the existence of a set of principles, rules or values which are independent of human will and (2) they dictate norms of behaviour for us humans. Ok, this is a bit of a simplification, I am using my memory, not Dr. Google here. He also argues that everything which ends in ism is a religion.

Clearly, old-fashioned naturism was a religion. It established a set of universal principles which are not human made: getting close to nature is a value in itself; nudity is not related to sexuality; naturists are somewhat better people, more open, more friendly, more sincere, more equal; physical activities and more useful for humans than when done in the nude etc. And of course, these principles impose some behavioural norms on the members if this church: be close to nature; be nude whenever possible; don't mix sex and nudity; be nice to fellow naturists etc.

Now nudism is less well defined, but most self-identified nudists will recognise themselves in the above-mentioned principles norms. Although, when you scratch a bit the surface like I do in this group, you realise that well... those principles are not as universal as they look. Nudists are not alone in the pleasure of getting close to nature and many are very fine with in-door social nudity; the nudity of a nice specimen of your preferred gender does have some sexual appeal (especially, for obvious evolutionary reasons which I mentioned several times, for males, although we ladies are not entirely exempt from feeling sexually attracted towards nice gents...); too much sun exposure is anything but good for your health; if anything, nudists are as sincere as textiles, and in respect of issues like link too sexuality, even less sincere...

But do you think all Muslims or Christians behave as their religion requires to do? Do Christians turn the other cheek? If you believe so I can show you a few dozens million post-WWII victims of organised violence committed by self-declared Christians... In fact this religion, as practiced today should rather be named Judeo-Paulianism. But this is another story...

So yes, I think it is fair to say that nudism is a sort of loose religion, practiced differently by different people... And yes, there are probably as many self-declared nudists as textiles who are rude, egotistic or attracted by sexy ladies, just as there as many Chistians as atheists who are war criminals... And I would even guess that the percentage of nudists who share more than nudity (aka swingers) is higher than the same percentage among textiles...

Let's make some simple litmus tests. Are your eyes more attracted by nudists of your preferred gender who display excellent reproductive fitness (aka, for most members of this group, by young sexy chicks)? Do you look with the same amount of interest at my elbow as at my boobs, at my butt as at my shoulder, at my knee as at my pussy? 'Nough said.

So yes, I believe that Harari is right on this one, everything which ends in ism is a religion and nudism is no exception to this rule. A wide, poorly defined and very poorly implemented religion. Just like Christianism.

This is also why I am not defining myself as a nudist but as a person who engages in social nudity. Why is it that I do (and more often than not, like) this? First, because being nude when bathing or sunbathing, or just moving around (not running though!) feels so good. I am sure that there are people who would be wearing a swimsuit even when alone on a private beach or by their pool... But those are the exception and if you ask me they should see a good psy to figure some things out about themselves.

What about the social aspect of nudity? I think this is a plus. First, I do like to see other people in the nude around, I think people, regardless of their age and body type look better nude than strapped into swimsuits. And yes, nudism being such marginal activity, largely frown upon, when nude among other nude people you do have a feeling of belonging to a club, to a group of like-minded individuals, almost friends... Did I say a to a religion? A sort of mysterious, hidden and somewhat immoral sect? Well, I can't really say that I feel that deep inside, I'm too rational I guess, but I do understand why people feel like that.

Third reason is that I do like to look at sexy individuals. Now I don't really have erotic feelings or thoughts about them but I do know where this comes from. People who advertise their reproductive fitness are supposed to attract our attention because they represent good mating potential. And this is somewhat amplified by the exposure, aka availability of their sexual bits and pieces. So while consciously I say "that's beautiful" with no hidden sexual intention I do know that yes, that beauty is actually sexual attraction working at a level closer to our brain stem than to our prefrontal cortex.

There is also that scarcity creates value. So all those boobs and cocks are nice to look at because you don't see them all the time. Of course, if you do see them all the time they will become all but invisible, such is our adaptation power.

But this is the interesting thing. I define myself as your average woman, 75% hererosexual and 25% gay but my eyes are mostly attracted by the sight of nice-looking ladies. Their gate, silhouette, eyes, hair, legs, boobs... Yes, boobs in particular... There are good evolutionary reasons why women are more beautiful than men (I wrote about it several times) just as there are good evolutionary reasons why children look so cute - well, mammalian cubs in general, we share lots of things among mammals, the little offspring of today's dinosaurs, aka birds, don't look so compelling to us as they look to their parents...

On the other hand, I do look more at men's rather than women's genitalia. So much more happening down there, such a large diversity of shapes and sizes! So yes dear gents, I do like to admire your family jewells. But don't send me dick pics please. I don't know why, but I'd find that ugly and offensive. It's likely a question of size and context. From close up, they don't look nice. All those wrinkles and loose hair? I'm not saying that we ladies are so much better when you zoom in on our best bits. Zoom in enough and our nipples look wrinkled and unpleasant like a sort of cancer and our most intimate part looks like the result of some surgery gone wrong. Add to this the context. A cock can look absolutely adorable from less than one inch away when attached to a nice person and when I have been brought to the right mood, but this is unlikely to happen if you send me your pics.

As usual, I got carried away and only dealt with the first question: is nudism a religion? Yes. Is it a messianic one and are we nudists supposed to be its missionaries? Maybe for another time...

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RE:Bianca's antics 3 - Is Nudism a Religion?

First ! Love this group ! Love the idea of thoughts that are different than just sexual or about the regular nudist stuff

Okay as a religion? I believe paganism was a type of religion to be enjoyed in nature. Worshiping the earth and nature. Part of it was being naked. being in touch with the earth and sun and moon. Even to the point of dancing around fires at night or enjoying mud on your skin. Not just being out in the sun the term mother earth comes to mind.

Even being a Christian and going to church naked is part of a nudist lifestyle. Im not sure about other religions because I have not studied them.(just dont have the time.). But could it be a religion?

In the United States if you were a religion, you get tax breaks. Wouldnt that be an interesting idea. Lol.

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RE:Bianca's antics 3 - Is Nudism a Religion?

I forgot that I had promised three parts to my topic about Bianca Censori's (almost) nude antics. Of course, Bianca and Kanye were a pretext; if you haven't noticed it, I used them as a prop to present my system of thinking in terms of probability (which make me often reach conclusions which are opposed to what is presented as facts by the media and politicians); in the second installment I was describing my own experience with being nude in public. And in this third and last one I am trying to give my answer to the question: is provocative public nudity like Bianca's good and bad for nudism?But I can't really try to answer this question before I think of other three: Is nudism a religion? Is it Messianic? Are we nudists its priests or missionaries?Now I have the feeling that this is gonna be a long and boring post... So please stop reading here.Af for the first question I'll take Harari's definition of what is a religion. Not because I like Harari (for a historian he knows preciously little about European history, I caught him several times parroting official propaganda which he must have read in governmental rags like NYT) but because he has a certain talent to crystallise complex ideas in simple words and short sentences. Maybe because he writes in English which is not his mother tongue?So he defines a religion as a set of beliefs which (1) state the existence of a set of principles, rules or values which are independent of human will and (2) they dictate norms of behaviour for us humans. Ok, this is a bit of a simplification, I am using my memory, not Dr. Google here. He also argues that everything which ends in ism is a religion.Clearly, old-fashioned naturism was a religion. It established a set of universal principles which are not human made: getting close to nature is a value in itself; nudity is not related to sexuality; naturists are somewhat better people, more open, more friendly, more sincere, more equal; physical activities and more useful for humans than when done in the nude etc. And of course, these principles impose some behavioural norms on the members if this church: be close to nature; be nude whenever possible; don't mix sex and nudity; be nice to fellow naturists etc.Now nudism is less well defined, but most self-identified nudists will recognise themselves in the above-mentioned principles norms. Although, when you scratch a bit the surface like I do in this group, you realise that well... those principles are not as universal as they look. Nudists are not alone in the pleasure of getting close to nature and many are very fine with in-door social nudity; the nudity of a nice specimen of your preferred gender does have some sexual appeal (especially, for obvious evolutionary reasons which I mentioned several times, for males, although we ladies are not entirely exempt from feeling sexually attracted towards nice gents...); too much sun exposure is anything but good for your health; if anything, nudists are as sincere as textiles, and in respect of issues like link too sexuality, even less sincere...But do you think all Muslims or Christians behave as their religion requires to do? Do Christians turn the other cheek? If you believe so I can show you a few dozens million post-WWII victims of organised violence committed by self-declared Christians... In fact this religion, as practiced today should rather be named Judeo-Paulianism. But this is another story...So yes, I think it is fair to say that nudism is a sort of loose religion, practiced differently by different people... And yes, there are probably as many self-declared nudists as textiles who are rude, egotistic or attracted by sexy ladies, just as there as many Chistians as atheists who are war criminals... And I would even guess that the percentage of nudists who share more than nudity (aka swingers) is higher than the same percentage among textiles...Let's make some simple litmus tests. Are your eyes more attracted by nudists of your preferred gender who display excellent reproductive fitness (aka, for most members of this group, by young sexy chicks)? Do you look with the same amount of interest at my elbow as at my boobs, at my butt as at my shoulder, at my knee as at my pussy? 'Nough said.So yes, I believe that Harari is right on this one, everything which ends in ism is a religion and nudism is no exception to this rule. A wide, poorly defined and very poorly implemented religion. Just like Christianism.This is also why I am not defining myself as a nudist but as a person who engages in social nudity. Why is it that I do (and more often than not, like) this? First, because being nude when bathing or sunbathing, or just moving around (not running though!) feels so good. I am sure that there are people who would be wearing a swimsuit even when alone on a private beach or by their pool... But those are the exception and if you ask me they should see a good psy to figure some things out about themselves.What about the social aspect of nudity? I think this is a plus. First, I do like to see other people in the nude around, I think people, regardless of their age and body type look better nude than strapped into swimsuits. And yes, nudism being such marginal activity, largely frown upon, when nude among other nude people you do have a feeling of belonging to a club, to a group of like-minded individuals, almost friends... Did I say a to a religion? A sort of mysterious, hidden and somewhat immoral sect? Well, I can't really say that I feel that deep inside, I'm too rational I guess, but I do understand why people feel like that.Third reason is that I do like to look at sexy individuals. Now I don't really have erotic feelings or thoughts about them but I do know where this comes from. People who advertise their reproductive fitness are supposed to attract our attention because they represent good mating potential. And this is somewhat amplified by the exposure, aka availability of their sexual bits and pieces. So while consciously I say "that's beautiful" with no hidden sexual intention I do know that yes, that beauty is actually sexual attraction working at a level closer to our brain stem than to our prefrontal cortex.There is also that scarcity creates value. So all those boobs and cocks are nice to look at because you don't see them all the time. Of course, if you do see them all the time they will become all but invisible, such is our adaptation power.But this is the interesting thing. I define myself as your average woman, 75% hererosexual and 25% gay but my eyes are mostly attracted by the sight of nice-looking ladies. Their gate, silhouette, eyes, hair, legs, boobs... Yes, boobs in particular... There are good evolutionary reasons why women are more beautiful than men (I wrote about it several times) just as there are good evolutionary reasons why children look so cute - well, mammalian cubs in general, we share lots of things among mammals, the little offspring of today's dinosaurs, aka birds, don't look so compelling to us as they look to their parents...On the other hand, I do look more at men's rather than women's genitalia. So much more happening down there, such a large diversity of shapes and sizes! So yes dear gents, I do like to admire your family jewells. But don't send me dick pics please. I don't know why, but I'd find that ugly and offensive. It's likely a question of size and context. From close up, they don't look nice. All those wrinkles and loose hair? I'm not saying that we ladies are so much better when you zoom in on our best bits. Zoom in enough and our nipples look wrinkled and unpleasant like a sort of cancer and our most intimate part looks like the result of some surgery gone wrong. Add to this the context. A cock can look absolutely adorable from less than one inch away when attached to a nice person and when I have been brought to the right mood, but this is unlikely to happen if you send me your pics.As usual, I got carried away and only dealt with the first question: is nudism a religion? Yes. Is it a messianic one and are we nudists supposed to be its missionaries? Maybe for another time...

The main part of your essay is interesting for sure, it's nudism a religion, maybe to some it might be or is already, however for my humble self, I think of it as a hobby.

Sometimes i spend a lot of time on this particular hobby, sometimes less so and I concentrate on a different hobby, many things encourage me to spend time on this one, the weather, the location, the mood.

Maybe i have too simple a view of the world...

Anywho, for me, and that's all someone can say really, nudism is one of my hobbies.

Hobbyism Richie x

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RE:Bianca's antics 3 - Is Nudism a Religion?

Nobody would likely ever agree that nudism is a religion from themselves. But if you believe that nudism has some principles, values and rules which we can't discuss, challenge or change then... Welcome to th sect.

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RE:Bianca's antics 3 - Is Nudism a Religion?

The main part of your essay is interesting for sure, it's nudism a religion, maybe to some it might be or is already, however for my humble self, I think of it as a hobby.
I'm more aligned with Richie's thinking but I barely even consider it a hobby, let alone a religion. Nudism is something I do when I partake in my hobbies, so I consider it a matter of interest or personal convenience, weather-permitting, of course. Nude volleyball, nude jogging, or nude hiking - it's a modifier rather than an a standalone ideology.

But if you believe that nudism has some principles, values and rules which we can't discuss, challenge or change then... Welcome to th sect.
I disagree, Nudists and Nudism isn't monolithic, there aren't really over-arching rules or values other than respect, courtesy and the Golden Rule - but that can be said for almost any activity where there's an expectation of fair play. Certainly any ideas put forth by one group of Nudists is totally contradicted and in contrasted by a totally different group of nudists, would these be considered sects or branches off from Nudist doctrine or ideology? I wouldn't say so.

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RE:Bianca's antics 3 - Is Nudism a Religion?

Vanilla, I think you didn't read the sentence you disagree with carefully enough. You seem in fact to agree with it. And not speaking here about the golden rule, which is the modus vivendi in any society - including chimps' or parrots' ones (and I don't believe that parrots and chimps are members of churches), I was speaking about the belief in some immutable "values".

And of course religions are not monolithic, only small sects are and of course most members of a church don't even know and would never accept they are members, and of course not everyone is a member of a church, although most people are. For example, most people are members of the Nationalism church - which is in brief the belief that there is something special about a country for the simple reason that you where born there. And do you think that feminists or racists would ever accept that they are members of specialised churches?

In fact Harari writes that there have been three humanist religions in human history: communism, which thought that the main value is the good of the society, liberalism, which put the individual in the centre and... Nazism, which thought that the good of the human species is the overarching value. Now, sadly for a historian he called communism socialism and Nazism fascism but I hope that he does know the difference and was just pandering to an uneducated American audience which does not care about it. Of course, had he not been a Jew himself, calling Nazism (which is basically fascism plus a very radical and violent form of racism) a humanist religion might have brought him in very troubled waters. I had to censor many ideas from my thesis to not get into trouble not only with the scientific community but possibly also with the law. There are things in our past which, when you try to understand, you get on a slippery slope, pushed along it by moral extremists who believe that explanation equals justification equals apology equals prison time...

And of course the US Declaration of Independence is a sort of a Bible, not only a nationalist one, but a very humanist one too... "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

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RE:Bianca's antics 3 - Is Nudism a Religion?

Vanilla, I think you didn't read the sentence you disagree with carefully enough. You seem in fact to agree with it...
How?
So he defines a religion as a set of beliefs which (1) state the existence of a set of principles, rules or values which are independent of human will and (2) they dictate norms of behaviour for us humans. Ok, this is a bit of a simplification, I am using my memory, not Dr. Google here. He also argues that everything which ends in ism is a religion.
It's a simplification but not even a useful one... In this most basic, dull, secular definition of a religion, sure... Veganism is as much of a religion as Islamic Extremism... but what's the point? That boils the discussion down to a matter of labels or semantics with which you most comfortably define yourself as... and doesn't really warrant any deeper investigation beyond, "This collection of symbols makes me feel best about myself", it's identity politics in the most banal sense of the phrase. You're using a secular definition but applying religious language, the juxtaposition servers no purpose.
So yes, I believe that Harari is right on this one, everything which ends in ism is a religion and nudism is no exception to this rule. A wide, poorly defined and very poorly implemented religion.
I think the crux of your post was here, to which I disagree... after this, you get a bit rambly. Divorcing Christianity from the divine and supernatural, by comparing it to Nudism is a total non-starter, considering divinity and the supernatural is integral to it, which can be totally unrelated to Nudism as a practice - There's no worship, no sacrament, no prayer or supreme beings... so why even bother comparing? This thought exercise may as well be a hedge-maze.

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RE:Bianca's antics 3 - Is Nudism a Religion?

Vanilla, I am going to stop this debate after this post because you don't seem to be willing to discuss a gentlemanlike manner. And this group is only open to gentlemen. Calling a lady's words rambling is insulting and is not acceptable in an Elegant Nudist Ladies' group, where men are only tolerated if they are gentlemen.

Plus, you fail on formal logic. I write "if you believe that nudism has some rules or values which we cant't challenge or change then you are religious about it". You say "I don't believe that, for me nudism is just a hobby so you are wrong". Which has nothing to do with my logical implication. If you want to deny my hypothesis "If A than B", there is only one way: Say I (or someone else) am A but not B. I believe in nudist rules or values which humans can't change but I am not in a religion because. If I say "if you are a cow, than you are a ruminant" you can't contradict me by saying "I'm neither a cow nor a ruminant, so you are wrong".

Then you go on a tangent saying that nudism is not monolithic and there are no overarching rules etc. which I agree with and has nothing to do with the subject. There was an important if there..

Then you claim funny things, such as that I dissociate Christianism from the supernatural (whatever that means, one could also argue that if God exists He is in the nature, so natural). I didn't. If I say that a cow is a mammal and not all mammals have horns I am not denying cows their "hornitude".

There are religions (oh well, systems of beliefs usually considered as religions) which are non-theistic (do not claim the existence of a being with supernatural (again, with the usual caveat) powers and do not believe in a form of life after death. Confucianism is an example. Some later branches of Buddhism too.

So no, I was not dissociating Christianism from the divine, I was offering a different perspective on what is a religion. And also what is (and is not) "humanist". Which you call a non-starter. On the contrary, I think it is an excellent starter for an intelligent, civilised discussion, but this is just me. In fact you basically accept Harari's definition saying "It's a simplification but not even a useful one... In this most basic, dull, secular definition of a religion, sure..." I like basic things, I'm a simple blonde... And basic things are sometimes surprisingly interesting. Dull is more of an insult, I'll pass. Secular? Now this is interesting. What is wrong with a secular definition of a religion unless you are a (very) religious person yourself?

You also beat the straw man by associating veganism with Islamic EXTREMISM. Extremism is not a religion. Any movement can become extremist, usually because the believe in some absolute truths (aka ideology, aka religion). And yes, there can such thing as vegan extremism. I can be vegan because I think it's healthy or because I like animals but I can also be part of a veganist movement which believes that eating meat is a sin and those who do it should be harshly punished. Just like I can be a woman (femme in French) or I can be a member of a feminist movement which thinks that masculinity is bad, testosterone poisoning is everywhere, that every difference between women and men the is due to persecution and bosses who don't hire an equal number of men and women should be put to prison. I can be a trans woman because I didn't feel well in my male skin or I can believe that there is no difference between sexes, all there is is genders associated at birth by the society and everybody who doesn't accept is should be legally punished. I can be a Jew or I can be someone who believes that everyone who criticises Netanyahu is an anti-Semite and should be sentenced to prison. Etc.

I'll stop here, I think it is sufficient. Maybe not before saying that for me semantics, the meaning of things, definitions, are very important, even if English is my fifth language.

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RE:Bianca's antics 3 - Is Nudism a Religion?

Well, I'm glad that matter was settled. All hail Patron St. Bianca Censori, a new apostle in the Great Church of Nudism. Amen.

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RE:Bianca's antics 3 - Is Nudism a Religion?

Well, I'm glad that matter was settled. All hail Patron St. Bianca Censori, a new apostle in the Great Church of Nudism. Amen.

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RE:Bianca's antics 3 - Is Nudism a Religion?

Vanilla was let go from the group after this exchange.

Dear members, this group was created for elegant ladies and only gentlemen are allowed inside. Now, I know that I do tease and provoke sometimes in my posts. This is meant to take you out of this site's mainstream comfort zone - or well, just because otherwise I would get too bored. So you can blame me for that, you can disagree with me and you can debate me. I myself am sometimes tempted to fight my own arguments... That is fine and welcome.

But there are some things which gentlemen don't do when debating a lady:
- they are not aggressive;
- they take their time to understand the lady's point of view and to formulate their objections in a polite way;
- they don't go as hominem and don't insult the lady;
- they don't use irony instead of humour.

Of course, there are other rules (I can think of five on top of my head) for a nice, useful debate, but these 4 are the bare minimum and if you fail to observe them... Well, there are over 5,000 other groups in this site and a few billion other sites... No big issue really.

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