cruzey wrote:Now with facespook exploiting your every post, you should see more of adverts that elicit a response from your personality, interests, age, income, location, status, job, etc. so the adverts that dont work on your ilk will be hidden. That is not to say your enjoy, agree with, or want to see those adverts. Just that they work on your type!!
IMO, that is exactly what's wrong with social media like Facebook. More than any other medium, they let you seal yourself inside a bubble where everything reflects your present interests. That's why I make it a point never to click on anything advertised there. (Not that it does any good ... they seem to find out anyway.)
The only cure I see is to seek out other sources for social contact that don't have that filtering mechanism. That usually involves personal physical contact, which ain't happening much these days what with COVID. But we have to work on that when the pandemic is over.
Another annoyance is just after making a purchase, being undated with ads for competing products, similar ones, or the "people who bought this, also bought this." To me it is wasted effort. I already bought what I wanted or needed.
Getting back to the topic, it's occurred to me that almost all of the put-downs that males have made regarding another male's nudity and body are made by boys who are just coming into puberty and are dealing with the changes of their own bodies. They see other boys who are at a different stage of development and are insecure about their own bodies. So their attempt to shame their comrades is a way of avoiding having to deal with their own insecurity. In other words, they're boys being boys, displaying all the immaturity that boys exhibit at that age.
Compare it to a kid who rags on another kid because he stutters, or he can't catch a ball, or he wears weird clothes. He's showing a lack of empathy. And, unless it's corrected by an adult or a respected peer, that kid is liable to carry that attitude into adulthood.
The cure, as I see it, is to have kids be naked in front of other kids under adult supervision. The adults can call them out on immature behavior when it first crops up, and reassure the other kids that such "out of line" behavior just marks the kid as immature.
In my own experience, the only serious kidding I got regarding my body was in high school. By the time I got to college, that sort of behavior disappeared, and men could be naked in locker rooms or dorm rooms or showers without anybody remarking on it at all. I think that's because they all went through the same sort of acculturation process that I did, and had outgrown any tendencies to rag on other guys by that time. Could it be that because kids today don't have that experience of seeing each other naked as they grow up, the behavior is seen more in young adult men today?
I'd like to hear from somebody who was raised in a nudist environment with other kids from childhood.
Fritobandito (and the rest), I agree with you. Especially your first sentance. The millenials of today are afraid to be seen naked in a gym or wet area of a locker room so they shower with their towels wrapped around them or wearing their underwear ( I just shake my head at the ridiculousness of that thinking), yet THEY are the generation that has had access to any porn when their parents buy them their first phone when they're 11 and they're the ones who send dick pics to the girlfriends and other friends and as a rule don't seem to care that much when they're shared around to others , or they do helicoptors with their dicks at parties in mixed company and everyone thinks its so fun and hysterical - yet THEY can't shower in the nude at the Y. The hypocrisy of it all. (eye roll.... )
I wish there were enough 20s guys on this site to give some honest feedback about whats behind all this. I've talked briefly to a couple guys in their 20s in a sauna etc and I've heard a combination of several different things. I don't know what to believe though and I haven't talked with enough young men about to come up with a "scientific study" group lol.
I would LOVE to own a gym and make showering nude and sitting in the sauna on a towel nude, a mandate. I don't live in an area that has one of those Korean spas where everyone is expected to be naked.
We do have hard data on this. Biggest single influence: creepy old men.
People love nudity, especially amongst peers. They just don't want to be naked around creepy old men. Our local group experiences this directly. Participation, especially of younger and female members, increases when they are assured of the absence of creepy old men. You can make valid points up one side and down the other, but it is a solid fact that our numbers go up when the numbers of creepy old men go down.
The natural question that needs to be answered is, "what do younger people consider creepy, given they have no problem getting naked on Insta, Snap, et.al?" This is a valid question, given most people who are being creepy are unaware they are perceived as such.
Again, we do have hard data on this. Creepy is dependent on where the autonomy line is drawn. Drawing autonomy away from someone is creepy.
(edited for clarity)
Saying, "I don't know what to believe," in response to someone draws the autonomy line away from them. They are literally saying how they see things, and their words are being ignored. They won't argue, they will simply gather where their words are respected, and they have.
Making nudity mandatory moves the autonomy line away from the person in question. Nobody owes anyone a look at their body. They can't ask people to look away, but they like likewise can't be required to strip for anyone.
This may contradict what a lot of people hold true, so here is an olive branch for anyone who feels they don't need to change: nobody needs to change. The world is a big place, and there are lots of different people and ways to do things. People with similar values tend to attract each other. People need to change only when they want their circumstances to change.
MapJock wrote:The hypocrisy of it all. (eye roll.... )I wish there were enough 20s guys on this site to give some honest feedback about whats behind all this. I've talked briefly to a couple guys in their 20s in a sauna etc and I've heard a combination of several different things. I don't know what to believe though and I haven't talked with enough young men about to come up with a "scientific study" group lol.I would LOVE to own a gym and make showering nude and sitting in the sauna on a towel nude, a mandate. I don't live in an area that has one of those Korean spas where everyone is expected to be naked.
CoRYYC wrote:We do have hard data on this. Biggest single influence: creepy old men.
I'd like to see that source for that "hard data." In particular, I'd like to see how they define "creepy."
Since I'm over seventy and not in the company of my wife, am I doomed to be creepy? Does that mean that I'm no longer welcome at places that want to attract couples and single women?but it is a solid fact that our numbers go up when the numbers of creepy old men go down.
Again, if it's a solid fact, there should be documentation for it. Please show your work.Creepy is dependent on where the autonomy line is drawn. Drawing autonomy away from someone is creepy.Saying, "I don't know what to believe," draws the autonomy line away from the person speaking. They are literally saying how they see things, and their words are being ignored. They won't argue, they will simply gather where their words are respected, and they have.
I don't know what you mean by "autonomy line." In management theory, it is defined as "the point at which the team is the clear owner and management doesnt interfere." I'm trying to see how that relates to the discussion at hand, except to say that the more rules there are in a group, the less autonomy the group has to make its own decisions. So what are the "rules" in play here, exactly?Making nudity mandatory moves the autonomy line away from the person in question. Nobody owes anyone a look at their body. They can't ask people to look away, but they like likewise can't be required to strip for anyone.
But further down, you say:I would LOVE to own a gym and make showering nude and sitting in the sauna on a towel nude, a mandate..
So you're in favor of a situation where nudity is mandatory, where people are required to strip, and therefore it is mandatory for people to look at your body, and mandatory for you to see theirs?
I really can't tell which side of the argument you're on. Help me out here.
@woodsman21 - edited my post to add the citation which apparently went missing.
MapJock wrote:I would LOVE to own a gym and make showering nude and sitting in the sauna on a towel nude, a mandate..
woodsman21 wrote:I really can't tell which side of the argument you're on. Help me out here.
As for the rest, you don't need to buy in. It's not that important. We will continue to stage our events and gatherings using our data, and others are welcome to do it their way, too. There is room for everyone.
I was reading an earlier post that suggested that some of the issue around men not being comfortable being naked was a feminist call about 'male privilege' being able to go shirtless. I have heard this before. I am all for equality, and a step further justice for all genders. But there are some things about our bodies that give privilege. I as a male will never have a child in my womb . I will never know what it is like to breast feed a baby. and I have yet to met a woman who has had prostrate cancer. I fully support woman who chose to breast feed in public. It is a natural and very normal thing to do. Rather than saying men should not go shirtless in order to stop male privilege . We should be saying it is alright for woman to go topless as I have witness in many 'summer gathering'. Teaching boys to cover up is to also teach body shame as an unintended consequence. Naked life teaches body acceptance. I love to see the diversity of bodies on this web sight. Posted with out shame!
KiwiRas
We should be saying it is alright for woman to go topless as I have witness in many 'summer gathering'.
I agree, but very few would likely do so.
In neighboring (for me) NY state, women are permitted to be topless at beaches, parks and many other outdoor locations, but very few are.
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